My husband's college-age niece went to Waldorf school and emerged cynical, empiricist, and focused on her interest in flying airplanes. (She's NT, to the best of my knowledge.) Her sister had the same teacher for years and hated the teacher (a drawback of Waldorf schools). Much about Waldorf schools sounds appealing, but not the cult origins. I went to Montessori preschool for a while and I think that would be more suited to autistic kids if they're not outdoorsy.
Bluey sounds cool on the surface, if I had some reason to watch kids' cartoons.
I did not know anything about Bluey, but saw Waldorf mentioned so I listed. I have had a couple different experiences, as well as with friends that had their kids in Waldorf School, and have mixed emotions about it. Ultimately, my conclusion is Steiner is weird, Anthroposophy is crazy, the psudo-science is annoying AF, and while seeming like a cool alternative form of education it, is very dogmatic. That said, there are some components to the education model that I do like. While we ultimately decided not to put our child in the school, due to financial reasons, but also the fact it was very white-upper middle class, we mixed some of the ideas into our homeschooling. I did like the idea of limiting (not eliminating) electronics in early childhood. I think teaching our child things like knitting and needle felting, gave them some useful forms of stimming, especially after realizing they had autism. I also liked the idea of using fairy tales, Norse and Greek mythology (which was my child's SPIN for a while), as well as some specific authors like Elsa Beskow and James Herriot for teaching. I have always been fascinated with nature, so was attracted to some of the nature immersion. However, I am glad that we did not purse enrollment. My kid did some homeschooling and then went into public school. I feel that many Waldorf kids are too sheltered. While we limited screens and electronics in early childhood, we did not by like 1st-2nd grade. It was cool to see my child discover the worlds of Hyrule and Minecraft. So yeah, I would just want parents to know what they are getting into before going the Waldorf route.
Wow!!! My son is a HUGE fan of Bluey. I worked for a couple who embraced the Waldorf lifestyle. They were super eccentric, just so you know I lived in West LA at the time. So it was so crazy to me. I remember when my boss told me that his daughter had a Minnie Mouse doll and she did not know who Minnie Mouse was and named the doll Marmalade. I wasn’t sure about how this school was, and looked into it because the aesthetics were so good. I ultimately did not decide on this route for my kids, for similar reasons to why Angela did not. It was just too off for me and as a tech family, that school was not going to go well. I also love bright colors. And I had to buy some stuff for the wife of the couple and now I know why she had me only buy pastels! They were such strange people in so many ways.
As soon as Waldorf schools was mentioned I was like this is going to be interesting. I was happy that you all covered the issues with them. I will admit that I still like Bluey but it is interesting to know some of the influences for it.
I also want to say that I think you all should do a "Nature is Autistic" episode. I work for a fish and wildlife agency and have been doing a lot of advocacy work for Neurodivergent people at the agency. One thing that stands out to me is that there are a lot of us working at this agency. I've noticed this at other similar orgs too. Autistic people and Neurodivergent people more broadly seem to often be drawn to these sorts of orgs--at least that is true for a portion of our community.
I know in my own experience, I feel most comfortable as an Autistic person, when I'm out in nature and when I'm working in nature. Field work in nature tends to involve a lot of focused work that follows a specific protocol and is often fairly independent. And because everyone is focused on making observations, collecting data, etc. there is no pressure to make eye contact or make small talk. It can be a really friendly working environment for Autistic people. Plus, this work is often focused around making the world a better place and protecting the environment which can be very rewarding and fit our justice sensitivities.
And beyond the workplace, when I'm stressed or anxious I always retreat to nature. Nature is a place where there is no expectations put on me and where I can just be myself. And at least for me, my sensory struggles are also lessened. I love going out and finding hidden areas in nature that I can climb a tree, go for a swim, or just sit on a rock and relax. Nothing is more calming for me than that.
I have also found that my ability to recognize patterns and being highly visual really helps me when out in nature. I always spot tracks and other signs of animals and I can look at a landscape and quickly know how it changes over the seasons due to the vegetation types, the presence or absence of debris, bare dirt, and other indicators. This has made me very good at doing field work where that attention to detail is very important. But also, I can imagine these skills would be very useful for people hunting or gathering food or deciding where to make camp. I also never get lost due to these same skills. I have often gone off trail and just headed out into the mountains and climbing up ridgelines and exploring forests until I get to the top. Despite being in the "middle of nowhere" with no map other than the one in my head, I always know how to find my way back to my car, to camp, etc. It feels instinctual to me and I credit it back to some of my strengths as an Autistic person such as pattern recognition and being really good at observing.
I have also found that being able to understand animal behavior has also helped me a lot. It has helped me know how to be safe around animals I find by understanding their body language and behavior so I act in a way that is appropriate. This really came in handy one day when hiking when I came across a mother bear with 2 cubs :) That is a more extreme example, but understanding animal behavior can also help if someone is trying to study them for example.
I know my experience isn't the same for all Autistic people, but I have met others who are also drawn to nature like me and feel more comfortable out in nature than they do in urban areas. Nature to me is my safe area. It was where I explored as a kid, and it is now where I work and often spend my free time. I think a "nature is Autistic" episode would be great since I know there are many of us in Autistica who would be out exploring the natural world every day if we could.
Agreed! My wife (Autistic) is an environmental chemist for the department of environmental protection and many of her co-workers are autistic too! My wife and I love nature so much, we're planning to build an Earthship home in rural New York in the next few years so we can live more in-tune with nature!
I grew up in a cult, but not Waldorf. Loved being in the cult where neurodivergence was always sinful.
What is the next episode about?
I’m dying to hear your take on Freddie Mercury. I discovered Queen October 2023, because the cult told me that rock music was sinful. But now that I’m free, I’ve been listening to different groups. Queen is definitely my favorite right now, but I could do with an injection of info and energy before I move into a different group or thing.
I did not come read this description before I listened, so the twist was a complete surprise to me. Like Angela, I too investigated Waldorf for my kid... I was then an undiagnosed parent of an undiagnosed kid... and figured that we would not fit into the community (techie family.) We went the Montessori route, and I'm happy to hear you mention you might cover this topic in the future. It was not until a couple of years later that I had the special interest activated by something or other (thankfully not a terrible arduous meal!), and learned all about the problematic Mr. Steiner. That being said, I'm still going to love Bluey, because we escaped the Waldorf trauma. Thank you for the excellent two-in-one episode!
Had to comment on the Steiner Waldorf school mention. Anthroposophy is extremely eyebrow-raise-worthy. I’d recommend thoroughly researching the cultish tendencies before considering them for a kid’s school. For anyone who speaks French, I recommend the podcast “Méta de choc” who did a 5-part interview with a former teacher in a SW school (Grégoire Perra). Absolutely chilling. I’m sure your German listeners might have a thing or two to teach us about this.
Pretty sure I was doing a whole tech of a lot of eyebrow raising on that episode as I am very much not a fan of pseudoscience and cultish indoctrination! Not sure if you listened to the episode or just commented without listening. If my eyebrow raising (AND RED FLAG WAIVING) wasn't clear enough please let me know!
In a moment of doubt I listened to the episode again. Somehow, I had missed the last part with the trip to the biodynamic vineyard, and the Waldorf school philosophy. I thought I wasn’t the type to comment without listening, but as it turns out, I’ve been it! Sorry about that, and thanks for the great episode and show.
I would like to know more about the spiritual side of Autism though. IDK if this is an episode that could happen. I just think that pattern recognition or not, autistic people are more in tune with what is happening. I have been reading a lot about consciousness because I had my own theory on autistic and ADHD people having a different experience consciously. It turns out that no one will study or deal with consciousness because they can’t figure out where it is. So all neuroscience research is done by blatantly denying that consciousness exists. Super heady subject, I know. This episode did hit an emotional part of me though. Mostly because of the way I am teaching my non-speaking son. This is also why I’d really like a deep dive into this area, it’s so controversial.
My husband's college-age niece went to Waldorf school and emerged cynical, empiricist, and focused on her interest in flying airplanes. (She's NT, to the best of my knowledge.) Her sister had the same teacher for years and hated the teacher (a drawback of Waldorf schools). Much about Waldorf schools sounds appealing, but not the cult origins. I went to Montessori preschool for a while and I think that would be more suited to autistic kids if they're not outdoorsy.
Bluey sounds cool on the surface, if I had some reason to watch kids' cartoons.
I did not know anything about Bluey, but saw Waldorf mentioned so I listed. I have had a couple different experiences, as well as with friends that had their kids in Waldorf School, and have mixed emotions about it. Ultimately, my conclusion is Steiner is weird, Anthroposophy is crazy, the psudo-science is annoying AF, and while seeming like a cool alternative form of education it, is very dogmatic. That said, there are some components to the education model that I do like. While we ultimately decided not to put our child in the school, due to financial reasons, but also the fact it was very white-upper middle class, we mixed some of the ideas into our homeschooling. I did like the idea of limiting (not eliminating) electronics in early childhood. I think teaching our child things like knitting and needle felting, gave them some useful forms of stimming, especially after realizing they had autism. I also liked the idea of using fairy tales, Norse and Greek mythology (which was my child's SPIN for a while), as well as some specific authors like Elsa Beskow and James Herriot for teaching. I have always been fascinated with nature, so was attracted to some of the nature immersion. However, I am glad that we did not purse enrollment. My kid did some homeschooling and then went into public school. I feel that many Waldorf kids are too sheltered. While we limited screens and electronics in early childhood, we did not by like 1st-2nd grade. It was cool to see my child discover the worlds of Hyrule and Minecraft. So yeah, I would just want parents to know what they are getting into before going the Waldorf route.
Wow!!! My son is a HUGE fan of Bluey. I worked for a couple who embraced the Waldorf lifestyle. They were super eccentric, just so you know I lived in West LA at the time. So it was so crazy to me. I remember when my boss told me that his daughter had a Minnie Mouse doll and she did not know who Minnie Mouse was and named the doll Marmalade. I wasn’t sure about how this school was, and looked into it because the aesthetics were so good. I ultimately did not decide on this route for my kids, for similar reasons to why Angela did not. It was just too off for me and as a tech family, that school was not going to go well. I also love bright colors. And I had to buy some stuff for the wife of the couple and now I know why she had me only buy pastels! They were such strange people in so many ways.
As soon as Waldorf schools was mentioned I was like this is going to be interesting. I was happy that you all covered the issues with them. I will admit that I still like Bluey but it is interesting to know some of the influences for it.
I also want to say that I think you all should do a "Nature is Autistic" episode. I work for a fish and wildlife agency and have been doing a lot of advocacy work for Neurodivergent people at the agency. One thing that stands out to me is that there are a lot of us working at this agency. I've noticed this at other similar orgs too. Autistic people and Neurodivergent people more broadly seem to often be drawn to these sorts of orgs--at least that is true for a portion of our community.
I know in my own experience, I feel most comfortable as an Autistic person, when I'm out in nature and when I'm working in nature. Field work in nature tends to involve a lot of focused work that follows a specific protocol and is often fairly independent. And because everyone is focused on making observations, collecting data, etc. there is no pressure to make eye contact or make small talk. It can be a really friendly working environment for Autistic people. Plus, this work is often focused around making the world a better place and protecting the environment which can be very rewarding and fit our justice sensitivities.
And beyond the workplace, when I'm stressed or anxious I always retreat to nature. Nature is a place where there is no expectations put on me and where I can just be myself. And at least for me, my sensory struggles are also lessened. I love going out and finding hidden areas in nature that I can climb a tree, go for a swim, or just sit on a rock and relax. Nothing is more calming for me than that.
I have also found that my ability to recognize patterns and being highly visual really helps me when out in nature. I always spot tracks and other signs of animals and I can look at a landscape and quickly know how it changes over the seasons due to the vegetation types, the presence or absence of debris, bare dirt, and other indicators. This has made me very good at doing field work where that attention to detail is very important. But also, I can imagine these skills would be very useful for people hunting or gathering food or deciding where to make camp. I also never get lost due to these same skills. I have often gone off trail and just headed out into the mountains and climbing up ridgelines and exploring forests until I get to the top. Despite being in the "middle of nowhere" with no map other than the one in my head, I always know how to find my way back to my car, to camp, etc. It feels instinctual to me and I credit it back to some of my strengths as an Autistic person such as pattern recognition and being really good at observing.
I have also found that being able to understand animal behavior has also helped me a lot. It has helped me know how to be safe around animals I find by understanding their body language and behavior so I act in a way that is appropriate. This really came in handy one day when hiking when I came across a mother bear with 2 cubs :) That is a more extreme example, but understanding animal behavior can also help if someone is trying to study them for example.
I know my experience isn't the same for all Autistic people, but I have met others who are also drawn to nature like me and feel more comfortable out in nature than they do in urban areas. Nature to me is my safe area. It was where I explored as a kid, and it is now where I work and often spend my free time. I think a "nature is Autistic" episode would be great since I know there are many of us in Autistica who would be out exploring the natural world every day if we could.
Agreed! My wife (Autistic) is an environmental chemist for the department of environmental protection and many of her co-workers are autistic too! My wife and I love nature so much, we're planning to build an Earthship home in rural New York in the next few years so we can live more in-tune with nature!
I grew up in a cult, but not Waldorf. Loved being in the cult where neurodivergence was always sinful.
What is the next episode about?
I’m dying to hear your take on Freddie Mercury. I discovered Queen October 2023, because the cult told me that rock music was sinful. But now that I’m free, I’ve been listening to different groups. Queen is definitely my favorite right now, but I could do with an injection of info and energy before I move into a different group or thing.
The Freddie Mercury episode just dropped this morning!! Hope you enjoy it!
I did not come read this description before I listened, so the twist was a complete surprise to me. Like Angela, I too investigated Waldorf for my kid... I was then an undiagnosed parent of an undiagnosed kid... and figured that we would not fit into the community (techie family.) We went the Montessori route, and I'm happy to hear you mention you might cover this topic in the future. It was not until a couple of years later that I had the special interest activated by something or other (thankfully not a terrible arduous meal!), and learned all about the problematic Mr. Steiner. That being said, I'm still going to love Bluey, because we escaped the Waldorf trauma. Thank you for the excellent two-in-one episode!
Interesting! Yes, I think Bluey is a good example of "eat the grapes, and spit out the seeds," or "take what you need and leave what you don't."
Had to comment on the Steiner Waldorf school mention. Anthroposophy is extremely eyebrow-raise-worthy. I’d recommend thoroughly researching the cultish tendencies before considering them for a kid’s school. For anyone who speaks French, I recommend the podcast “Méta de choc” who did a 5-part interview with a former teacher in a SW school (Grégoire Perra). Absolutely chilling. I’m sure your German listeners might have a thing or two to teach us about this.
Pretty sure I was doing a whole tech of a lot of eyebrow raising on that episode as I am very much not a fan of pseudoscience and cultish indoctrination! Not sure if you listened to the episode or just commented without listening. If my eyebrow raising (AND RED FLAG WAIVING) wasn't clear enough please let me know!
In a moment of doubt I listened to the episode again. Somehow, I had missed the last part with the trip to the biodynamic vineyard, and the Waldorf school philosophy. I thought I wasn’t the type to comment without listening, but as it turns out, I’ve been it! Sorry about that, and thanks for the great episode and show.
Y'all this one went places 😂 I've never been more compelled and then discouraged to hop on board with this show
I would like to know more about the spiritual side of Autism though. IDK if this is an episode that could happen. I just think that pattern recognition or not, autistic people are more in tune with what is happening. I have been reading a lot about consciousness because I had my own theory on autistic and ADHD people having a different experience consciously. It turns out that no one will study or deal with consciousness because they can’t figure out where it is. So all neuroscience research is done by blatantly denying that consciousness exists. Super heady subject, I know. This episode did hit an emotional part of me though. Mostly because of the way I am teaching my non-speaking son. This is also why I’d really like a deep dive into this area, it’s so controversial.